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| Velcro boots:Abe Froman:Velcro boots:Abe Froman:Lord Tony Smith:
Interesting that Abe tweeted over the weekend that there are
only three people who oversee every recruitment and retention decision and that
these three people don’t receive half as much criticism as others. They are:
Simon Moran
Stuart Middleton
Mike Lomax
The 'top 3 triangle' are ultimately responsible for the sanctioning of new signings & extending the contracts of players, with plenty of input from the Director Of Rugby and the senior coaching staff, as well as advisors that are used in Australia. It's their money that's being spent afterall. But nobody seems to mention them when criticising the clubs structure & on/off field results, which I suspect is down to the money they've put in to the club over the years. Imagine what position we'd be in now without them, especially SM. I don't think you can criticize them then, the club are paying people to advise and they are taking on board the advice given. The serious lack of quality falls on the people giving this advise. I have zero knowledge of who we use and if its the same people but if it is, after decades of poor recruitment with the odd exception id be cutting ties with no leaving card. When you say 'the club are paying people to advise' I assume you're referring to our Director Of Rugby & senior coaching staff ? Yeah but more so aimed at the advisors we use in Australia, i just find it bizarre and a waste of club/investors money constantly bringing players over that don't cut it You can't be blaming advisors in Australia for signings the likes of; Kyle Amor, Joe Bullock, Rob Butler, Anthony England, Lama Tasi, Ryan Bailey, Gary Wheeler, Brad Dwyer, Kev Penny, Matty Bylthe, Alfie Johnson, Oli Leyland, Jordy Crowther, Gil Dudson, Josh Drinkwater, Greg Minikin, Anthony Gelling etc. these players were playing over here when we signed them. | | |
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 14892 | Warrington Wolves |
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| Jun 2006 | 19 years | |
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| Jul 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
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| ratticusfinch:
We were most definitely contenders last season. I believe Powell’s problems were the fact he wanted a whole root and branch clear out when that team only needed limited tweaks. That is where he may be limited as a coach and why he was the wrong choice. He was handed an excellent starting front row for a start. We were never a good fit and if the club backed off and let him get on with it then he is to blame for what ensued. Things I heard from some players don’t paint Powell in a great light.
We always use this barometer with players so do people thinks HKR, Wigan or Saints would have him as head coach? I’d say no.
Good points, in reply 1. There was wide agreement post Price that there was a big job on to rebuild. Didn't Wane say something like that during a Sky interview? Rather than a tweak. We had just bottled home playoff games 3 years in a row. 2. HKR, Wigan, Saints point - Powell coached Leeds which you would argue are a big club. Do you think those clubs would hire Burgess? 3. What did the players say? Was it the players who had their outside sports sock or plumbing business interests affected? 4. Yes we were suprise contenders last year. So I make that 4 years under Smith, 1 under Price and last year (6 total) in the last 2 decades. Im not saying the Powell period was a success at all. The fit may have been bad. I just think there is enough evidence to suggest that perhaps he is a decent coach and that the problems at Warrington run deeper. | | | |
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| New Signing | 69 | No
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| Wires71:BarbedWire2:Wires71:BarbedWire2:
Sam might not be the answer, but of the past failures, Smith and Price both did so much more without ever going through the complete collapse of 2022.
One could argue Smith taking us into the bottom 4 playoffs with championship sides was pretty rank. Price was great in his 1st year, and a complete failure in his following three. He has never been a head coach since. Smith, absolutely. He missed the play offs (direct equivalent) and ultimately there was no green shoot of recovery in that team. He paid for it with his job. Price’s ‘failure’ compared to what had come since actually doesn’t look too bad. I’m not advocating for him, and wouldn’t want him back, but from where we were on season debrief of 2021, to where we were at debrief of 2022, proved the point really. We had tantrums about being knocked out at home against Hull Kr in the playoffs, and relied on scraping past Toulouse to remain in the top flight. While this season hasn’t been good enough, and it’s not, we can’t judge former seasons differently because the coach got Cas to a grand final a few years ago and stopped Mike Cooper selling T-shirts. It was a failure, by every metric and almost everyone brought in during that period is now gone, Harrison and Dufty aside (Vaughan at seasons end). And that is actually really haunting, given the list includes but not limited to Minikin, Russell, Matautia, Holmes, Kasiano, Dudson, McGuire, Magoulias, Nicholson, Bullock, Drinkwater, Wardle. Add that to the players that left during that period, Hill, Cooper, Charnley, Widdop, Hughes, Mulhearn, Davis, Clark, Dean, Longstaff… That’s 20+ players gone since Price left in 2022. And I’d argue the second list is a better list of players than the first, 4 of them have gone on to represent England since leaving us as scrap. Fair points. The Powell period was a failure - no argument from me. Im just not sure that equates to Powell is a poor coach and it was all his fault. I think he had an impossible job and lets face it we have been rank now under 4 different coaches. In fact it was only for a limited period under Smith and one year of Price that we were anything like contenders in the last 20 years. Now, if you are an advocate of judging seasons the same and not differently without past influence then you must compare the league performance of Warrington in 2025 with the league performance in 2023 which got Powell the sack. As I have said, we are worse this year than 2023 by every metric (wins/position/points difference) but you give Burgess a pass and focus on how bad Powell was. I’m not saying it is/was all Powell fault, and I don’t expect you to go back through the archives but if you look at the threads of his appointment and dismissal I put a lot of this at the feet of the decision makers at the club. At the time, we were regularly in the top 4, and the job was to unlock that next gear to go the next step and win it. My point then, and still is, on what basis was Powell selected to do that job. The league outputs are similar this season, which is alarming. But in both situations you look at the aggravating and mitigating factors. Sam’s conduct, Vegas and ref moaning have made our season worse, not better. I think that is a fact. Mitigation, huge chunks of salary cap in the stands for the middle of the season (could be a strength & conditioning thing, could be the quality of training facilities) failed to recruit a second row (is this Chambers, did we gamble on Bateman not getting an NRL deal) and a rough schedule (going to Vegas wouldn’t have been Sam’s choice, winnable games after key cup fixtures) plus we actually made a major final. As it stands, Sam has made 2 of 3 available major finals. But still, won nothing. So it’s a mix bag to review at seasons end, but I think a lot of the outcome will depend on the run in. If we shape up and chase down the 6 and make it, I think there is enough to keep him in for next year. If we miss, it’s a close one and I get it if we do sack him. The equivalent of Powell, the disruption in team selection was largely man made, sacking, loaning and hiring his people who were later dropped or moved around, including his assistant (name I can’t even remember, but was replaced by Marshall after 1 year) Major injuries to key positions were not a contributor. There was no Vegas, with a game a week later that you in hindsight needed to in. No cup quarter, semi or final, again with no fixtures the week after that you needed points from. And we’re splitting hairs over table position without those obstacles. Powell also openly criticised Dean and Thewlis, taking Thewlis “out of the firing line” (which he said publicly) against Huddersfield only to pick him again the week after at Wigan. Dean never played again. The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that. And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation. | | |
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| New Signing | 69 | No
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Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Mar 2025 | 0 years | |
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| Jul 2025 | Jan 1970 | LINK |
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| Wires71:BarbedWire2:Wires71:BarbedWire2:
Sam might not be the answer, but of the past failures, Smith and Price both did so much more without ever going through the complete collapse of 2022.
One could argue Smith taking us into the bottom 4 playoffs with championship sides was pretty rank. Price was great in his 1st year, and a complete failure in his following three. He has never been a head coach since. Smith, absolutely. He missed the play offs (direct equivalent) and ultimately there was no green shoot of recovery in that team. He paid for it with his job. Price’s ‘failure’ compared to what had come since actually doesn’t look too bad. I’m not advocating for him, and wouldn’t want him back, but from where we were on season debrief of 2021, to where we were at debrief of 2022, proved the point really. We had tantrums about being knocked out at home against Hull Kr in the playoffs, and relied on scraping past Toulouse to remain in the top flight. While this season hasn’t been good enough, and it’s not, we can’t judge former seasons differently because the coach got Cas to a grand final a few years ago and stopped Mike Cooper selling T-shirts. It was a failure, by every metric and almost everyone brought in during that period is now gone, Harrison and Dufty aside (Vaughan at seasons end). And that is actually really haunting, given the list includes but not limited to Minikin, Russell, Matautia, Holmes, Kasiano, Dudson, McGuire, Magoulias, Nicholson, Bullock, Drinkwater, Wardle. Add that to the players that left during that period, Hill, Cooper, Charnley, Widdop, Hughes, Mulhearn, Davis, Clark, Dean, Longstaff… That’s 20+ players gone since Price left in 2022. And I’d argue the second list is a better list of players than the first, 4 of them have gone on to represent England since leaving us as scrap. Fair points. The Powell period was a failure - no argument from me. Im just not sure that equates to Powell is a poor coach and it was all his fault. I think he had an impossible job and lets face it we have been rank now under 4 different coaches. In fact it was only for a limited period under Smith and one year of Price that we were anything like contenders in the last 20 years. Now, if you are an advocate of judging seasons the same and not differently without past influence then you must compare the league performance of Warrington in 2025 with the league performance in 2023 which got Powell the sack. As I have said, we are worse this year than 2023 by every metric (wins/position/points difference) but you give Burgess a pass and focus on how bad Powell was. I’m not saying it is/was all Powell fault, and I don’t expect you to go back through the archives but if you look at the threads of his appointment and dismissal I put a lot of this at the feet of the decision makers at the club. At the time, we were regularly in the top 4, and the job was to unlock that next gear to go the next step and win it. My point then, and still is, on what basis was Powell selected to do that job. The league outputs are similar this season, which is alarming. But in both situations you look at the aggravating and mitigating factors. Sam’s conduct, Vegas and ref moaning have made our season worse, not better. I think that is a fact. Mitigation, huge chunks of salary cap in the stands for the middle of the season (could be a strength & conditioning thing, could be the quality of training facilities) failed to recruit a second row (is this Chambers, did we gamble on Bateman not getting an NRL deal) and a rough schedule (going to Vegas wouldn’t have been Sam’s choice, winnable games after key cup fixtures) plus we actually made a major final. As it stands, Sam has made 2 of 3 available major finals. But still, won nothing. So it’s a mix bag to review at seasons end, but I think a lot of the outcome will depend on the run in. If we shape up and chase down the 6 and make it, I think there is enough to keep him in for next year. If we miss, it’s a close one and I get it if we do sack him. The equivalent of Powell, the disruption in team selection was largely man made, sacking, loaning and hiring his people who were later dropped or moved around, including his assistant (name I can’t even remember, but was replaced by Marshall after 1 year) Major injuries to key positions were not a contributor. There was no Vegas, with a game a week later that you in hindsight needed to in. No cup quarter, semi or final, again with no fixtures the week after that you needed points from. And we’re splitting hairs over table position without those obstacles. Powell also openly criticised Dean and Thewlis, taking Thewlis “out of the firing line” (which he said publicly) against Huddersfield only to pick him again the week after at Wigan. Dean never played again. The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that. And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation. | | |
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 14892 | Warrington Wolves |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Jun 2006 | 19 years | |
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| Jul 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
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| BarbedWire2:
The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that.
And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation.
You make a good argument and I may agree with you. I will just challenge some points. 1. "When my plan is played to we compete against big teams" - this may hold true if you ignore 2024 CC Final against Wigan (CC) - lost 2024 Hull KR (league) - lost 2024 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Vegas (league) - embarrassed 2025 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Magic (league) - lost 2025 Hull KR home (league) - lost 2. Agree with the 2nd point. Of course it will take a leap of faith as those players were all present at the start of 2025 when we lost against the likes of Wakefield and Hull FC at home. I am more concerned why we look a different team in the Challenge Cup games than we do in the league. It's like the team really focus on that and give everything whereas the league games are not treated like that. If we performed in the league as we did in the Challenge Cup we would be comfortably in the top 4. Indeed if those 4 cup game wins this season were exchanged for readily achievable wins over Wakefield (Home), Hull (Home), Huddersfield (home), Castleford (away) we would be 4th now and well set for the playoffs. But interesting times and some hard games ahead. We will see. | | | |
| Rank | Posts | Team |
| New Signing | 69 | No
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| Mar 2025 | 0 years | |
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| Wires71:BarbedWire2:
The reasons/contributors/excuses just aren’t there for Powell. There was not a performance to point to and say “when my plan is played to, we compete against big teams” whereas Sam can do that.
And to answer a point from above, it’s not justifying who bad we are now because we’ve been worse. It’s still about who can take us from a plucky “also ran” to a winner. With Williams, Dufty, Sneyd, Walker and Currie all fit next week and beyond, Sam has an opportunity to get a song out of this team and show us and the board that he’s worthy of another year. The ball is in their court now, and by dumb luck alone if we do pick up we could somehow still stumble into the 6 and get a free shot at it with no expectation.
You make a good argument and I may agree with you. I will just challenge some points. 1. "When my plan is played to we compete against big teams" - this may hold true if you ignore 2024 CC Final against Wigan (CC) - lost 2024 Hull KR (league) - lost 2024 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Vegas (league) - embarrassed 2025 Leigh away (league) - lost 2025 Wigan at Magic (league) - lost 2025 Hull KR home (league) - lost 2. Agree with the 2nd point. Of course it will take a leap of faith as those players were all present at the start of 2025 when we lost against the likes of Wakefield and Hull FC at home. I am more concerned why we look a different team in the Challenge Cup games than we do in the league. It's like the team really focus on that and give everything whereas the league games are not treated like that. If we performed in the league as we did in the Challenge Cup we would be comfortably in the top 4. Indeed if those 4 cup game wins this season were exchanged for readily achievable wins over Wakefield (Home), Hull (Home), Huddersfield (home), Castleford (away) we would be 4th now and well set for the playoffs. But interesting times and some hard games ahead. We will see. I agree to a point, we haven’t won in those big events. Wembley last year we choked, despite starting really well. If I’m being brutally honest, one thing I would question is kicking 2 points when they are down a middle forward and we’re only down a fullback. That decision gave Wigan a chance to get off the ropes and they never really looked back. Almost as maddening as the panicked play where we throw the ball wide early in the set 13 vs 12 four minutes in and lose Dufty to the sin bin. We choked. But, that didn’t happen this year. We were in control for long periods but ultimately got beat by a) a superb team who defended relentlessly and b) an individual mistake. Without forensically analysing each game, it’s tough to say what went wrong with each, but what we can say with absolute certainty is that we’ll never win anything if we don’t learn some lessons. Wakefield away for example, we went behind early with a bit of lag from the cup game the week previous. But dragged ourselves into it just before half time. Then we drop the kick off. We had Saints 10-0 down at our place, let the kick off go onto touch. Cup final, failed to defend a kick. Even Cas last week, kick goes through and to a man we stand still, Fitz has a grab at it and nobody else is moving. If my memory was better, I bet there are 10+ times where we have released pressure by failing to defend a kick this year alone. That is my gripe with the coaching, control what’s in your control, practice defending your weaknesses. Sneyd again is an example, anyone doing video on us will spend 90% of the attack time on how to get at Sneyd. We haven’t found a way to protect him yet, despite having an excellent defensive centre who has just been moved to the right alongside an excellent defensive half (Williams). We have got Jake Thewlis, Wrench and Sneyd together who are all vulnerable, and Fitzgibbon who is aggressive and gets up off the line which ultimately exposes them further. This is the first week off we have had though, so it might be useful to work on those relationships and put some quality time on the training field, it’s difficult to do maintenance work on a moving production line. But we need to see some progress on that one, or Sneyd becomes a very expensive special teams player. | | | |
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